[Angrel-San]

Originally Posted by DeathCom

You can't be serious. Ring Out is a staple of the series, it is the ultimate comeback chance, and makes the stages MATTER. As it stands, ring outs are already FAR too difficult to get, and there are many stages without the possibility of ring out.

Multifloor arenas also end up being stupid. Sure, it looks cool at first, but after the 100th time of breaking down some wall you get BORED of the lame cut scene that often follows as a transition ensues. SCIV had it right with just expanding the stage in some cases by smacking a wall. If the stage can be transitioned WITHOUT some cut scene happening, then fine, otherwise its lame. Even Tekken 6's multi levels transition too slowly (its even worse that combos continue after them...)

I know RO has been a staple of the series. I just never liked the feature. Personal bias if you want. I would take damage and huge damage like a Tekken juggle + wall carry + wall splat than a 100% feature with no comeback chance whatsoever. About multifloor arenas comment, I disagree. It can be good if done nicely, like DOA2 did.

And Deathcom, you're clearly wrong in the ROs don't happen often in SC4. This is the most RO heavy game since SC1. Should I bring Hilde? Kilik? Algol? Yoshimitsu? The butter effect that happens in 1.03 in corners?

Come on now!!!

Don't know about that either. The GI system in BD regarding aerial attacks is in some cases unbalancing. This gives advantage to characters who do not have high flying moves (moves that often alone are often ALREADY TOO RISKY) as well as characters that have running slides that do not have a hop first. They either need to seriously buff off the ground moves in terms of damage, or scrap the new GI property.

Slides are a non factor in tournament play so the point of balance and slides is moot. About the rest, they should give a bonus to moves that when GIed, give a launch like Tira's 6K. Either forced crouch on block, Guard breaks, major advantage on hit, something that balances the risk/reward of a GI launch. If they do that, the feature is fine.

That I totally agree on. With modern consoles, such a feature would look flat out awesome.

Glad we agreed!!!

Perhaps a just-tech should be there, but SCII wall tech makes wall combos virtually non-existent. The current system is good because it makes walls a threat. What they really need is more wall-specific moves (it still sucks that they removed all of Taki's wall moves when they should have simply added more... ) The wall system in SCIV is already pretty fair. Terrain awareness is key to that fairness that is both walls and ring out.

That's why I suggested a balance between the 2. My original point was that SC2 system had a nice feature but as it was in SC2, it made the walls non existent save for preventing a RO. But on the other hand, the system present for the actual wall game in SC3 and 4 is Tekken.

Again, SC *ISN'T* Tekken. Soulcalibur emphasizes on always having an alternate way to deal with a situation like AC for juggles, GI for stopping momentum and reGI for preventing guaranteed damage, remove the whole armor to replenish the CF meter, Just Ukemis and so on.

The wall techs go with the spirit of what is the SC engine for the most part. To prevent the wall game from being useless like in SC2, I suggested the part of where wall tech could be applicable. IHMO, I think is the fairest of the ways, you have the wall splats and wall techs and it rewards the aggresor with a good wall splat for his effort.

Screw arcades, the scene is dead. Various communities and players can balance the game on the console via patches. It worked for SCIV... until NBGI just sorta dropped support for the game two months after release. But if they stuck around for the first six months at least, most if not all, of the serious balance issues in SCIV could have been ironed out. There is no need for the arcades these days.

Asia still has a viable arcade scene and that's proven with the countless Tekken matches and videos brought from Tekken Crash and arcades around Korea and Japan.

All I have to say is that I prefer the good old fashioned patching through the arcades. Vanilla Tekken 6 was horrible and had a ton of problems but with consistent patching and feedback from top players, the Tekken team kept at it and it ended in BR. Tekken 6 BR is the culmination of all that work and is beautiful. One of the best if not the best Tekken games to date and with a very solid balance.

A very solid game and highly recommended but it was possible because of the arcades. Soulcalibur should go that way as the prospect of having a BR type of game for SC is too good.

What we need is NBGI to get use to these online enabled games and to change their corporate strategy. They are still thinking like a '90s company, once a game goes gold, they move on to the next project. The online nature of current games can have support from the developers for years after release. NBGI wants to improve sales and their reputation, all they gotta do is stand by their product for more than a month.

I agree with this. Continued support is the way to go. Just like what the Tekken team is presently doing.

Agreed. I think this was done along with the whole removal of buffering, and pace of SCIV to make it more online friendly. WL moves are purely a reaction based move, and lag makes such moves easily abuse able.

Glad we agree. You don't see Tekken changing the concept of what is Tekken and removing moves for the sake of online play. That's just insulting and a slap in the face for your long time fans. Stop dumbing down the engine. It's better to add than remove.

Again, I couldn't agree more here. Fine points that we all hope to see realized in a future sequel. Also, the excuse that new hardware and all will not be the case, so Project Soul can focus on content.

Glad we agree.

While I agree that Edge Master Mode and Mission Mode, were good, I can't say the same about the Gauntlet. It was a glorified tutorial and was not even canon in terms of story (at least they flat out admit to that). Such a mode turns into a chore for seasoned players. I'm for it, so long as its entirely an optional event. So long as the bulk of the game can be played with your character of choice (or even, custom creation), it will be decent. Although it will take a lot of effort and time, I really think they should explore a having a single player element similar to that in MK Deception, or even Tekken's scenario. Not really looking for a brawler, but the game's story is a quest, that aspect should be reflected in something other than straight up 1 vs 1 fighting. I must also stress that I only suggest this to make the game more appealing to fans outside its hardcore base. Me personally, I could care less, I want more moves, stages, solid balance, and anything I can get from a Vs experience. But I know that I am in the minority on that.

If it was for me I would take either Soul Edge and SC1 modes. Those were great but in the end they are just unlocking modes for bonuses and features. The fighting game and it's engine always take priority than a bonus mode.

[flashn00b]

What i would want to see for the story mode is that it plays like a beat-em-up, with the boss battles played as a traditional SoulCalibur game.

Oh, and if possible, include Kratos Aurion as a guest character.

[dracomageat]

Originally Posted by flashn00b

Oh, and if possible, include Kratos Aurion as a guest character.

While I'm all for this and seriously feel he would have worked better than that god of war creep, I'm not sure it is that possible anymore, what with the name sharing and all. Way to shoot yourself in the foot Namco!

[DeathCom]

Originally Posted by Angrel-San

I know RO has been a staple of the series. I just never liked the feature. Personal bias if you want. I would take damage and huge damage like a Tekken juggle + wall carry + wall splat than a 100% feature with no comeback chance whatsoever. About multifloor arenas comment, I disagree. It can be good if done nicely, like DOA2 did.

And Deathcom, you're clearly wrong in the ROs don't happen often in SC4. This is the most RO heavy game since SC1. Should I bring Hilde? Kilik? Algol? Yoshimitsu? The butter effect that happens in 1.03 in corners?

Come on now!!!

Well, I can admit there are some exceptions that make ring outs worse in SCIV. Exceptions that should have been patched out of the game (don't forget Ivy's canon tricks). But where RO was an intended tactic, like for Nightmare, it's still well within fairness. Most of the cast has a really difficult time intentionally going for ring out against someone who knows what they are doing. The thing is, there isn't a problem with RO, there is a balance problem with a few characters in regards to RO. In my experience Ring Out is quite rare, but this is likely because I do not regularly play Hilde, Yoshimitsu, or Algol players. But I would still site balance issues with those characters, not the RO system.

But I couldn't disagree more about RO vs Tekken's juggle BS. Ring out is in many cases the same in that it ends a match. The key difference is, in Tekken you can literally get bored executing and certainly receiving a string that will certainly end in KO. With RO, its sudden, sometimes unexpected, even upsetting, and when its threat is even just perceived, it can totally change where a match is going. So yeah, I'll take RO any day over long juggle strings.

Originally Posted by Angrel-San

Slides are a non factor in tournament play so the point of balance and slides is moot. About the rest, they should give a bonus to moves that when GIed, give a launch like Tira's 6K. Either forced crouch on block, Guard breaks, major advantage on hit, something that balances the risk/reward of a GI launch. If they do that, the feature is fine.

Slides is a bad example, was the first thing that came to mind. But lets take Taki for example, the new GI property hurts her already stripped down offense a LOT more than it helps. Overall the property hurts characters that already have other issues already more than it buffs. But yeah, if they either buffed the damage, added guard break, or forced crouch, as you suggest, it would also balance things. But no question, as it stands, its got serious issues.

Originally Posted by Angrel-San

The wall techs go with the spirit of what is the SC engine for the most part. To prevent the wall game from being useless like in SC2, I suggested the part of where wall tech could be applicable. IHMO, I think is the fairest of the ways, you have the wall splats and wall techs and it rewards the aggresor with a good wall splat for his effort.

I see what your saying. And I agree, there should always be an escape / way reverse momentum. That's why I said just-tech, not just a tech escape like SCII had.

Originally Posted by Angrel-San

Asia still has a viable arcade scene and that's proven with the countless Tekken matches and videos brought from Tekken Crash and arcades around Korea and Japan.

All I have to say is that I prefer the good old fashioned patching through the arcades. Vanilla Tekken 6 was horrible and had a ton of problems but with consistent patching and feedback from top players, the Tekken team kept at it and it ended in BR. Tekken 6 BR is the culmination of all that work and is beautiful. One of the best if not the best Tekken games to date and with a very solid balance.

While in Tekken's case it made worlds of difference, it also resulted in a game that was old before it even shipped. I can agree that Asia still has a scene that can really help polish a game, I just don't think it's any better than doing the same job through a series of patches after release. Why limit input from only one market? The obvious issues (infinites, doom combos, wall hacking/floor sticking) can all be found via the online community. There is a strong enough offline scene on consoles that the core balance issues can be ironed out. NBGI/Project Soul will need to take a more active role. Just like Yoshinori Ono keeps tabs on how SFIV did in the tournament scene world wide.

Yoshinori OnoI agree with this. Continued support is the way to go. Just like what the Tekken team is presently doing.[/quote]

That remains to be seen IMO. The Scenario Co-Op patch was announced before launch. We still don't have the most basic of options, like saving 2p control settings, or the use of local custom characters in VS. How they missed the mark on such rudimentary features is just beyond me. It's an oversight I would expect if say, LJN came back from the dead and made a fighter.

Originally Posted by Angrel-San

Glad we agree. You don't see Tekken changing the concept of what is Tekken and removing moves for the sake of online play. That's just insulting and a slap in the face for your long time fans. Stop dumbing down the engine. It's better to add than remove.

Exactly. But at the same time, even with all the patches and near total revamp of its netcode, I still think SCIV plays better online than Tekken 6. T6 is just too fast for online or its netcode is still not up to SFIV standards. SCIV's slower pace, and universal 5 frame lag make it more predictable. Tekken 6 still seems to vary enough to really do a number on your timing, timing essential for both attack and defense. The fundamental changes to SCIVs gameplay does help it online (helps make up for its craptastic netcode). If SCIV were to get a netcode rewrite, IMO it could play better than capcom's finest.

However, with all that being said, I still disagree with the removal of the WL moves, buffer nerfing, and other BS.

Originally Posted by Angrel-San

The fighting game and it's engine always take priority than a bonus mode.

For the most part, I think it is. But at the same time, when Bamco goes and makes radical changes (Tekken 4) the hardcore cry fowl. The fans of the Vs aspect just tend to want more of the same, but deeper, more complex, more characters, etc. The other, larger, part of the market want's more accessible, simpler, vs action. They often do not even see the subtle move changes characters get, or even animation changes (hence why Bamco thinks they can get away with reusing some animations that are 15 years old in T6). Nor do they remember every win quote, or scrap of in game voice samples (again, that Bamco is happy to regurgitate sequel after sequel).

But what this larger, casual, market does notice is all the things the hardcore could care less about. Gimmicks, guests, and modes. In Tekken 6's case it bit em in the ass. The gimmick mode was such low quality product that it got slammed in reviews and by even the casual fans. Couple that with gameplay that to the casual fan looks just like Tekken 5 (but maybe longer combos) and you have the lower than expected sales for Bamco's flagship fighter (and the subsequent termination of some 630 employees).

So sadly, the key to getting the rave reviews and thus the sales is quality gimmicks, decent Vs fighting, and appealing characters. SCII had all those features. SCIV had two of them. SFIV also has two of them, but I think the appealing characters is more of a nostalgia thing, it will be interesting to see if all the additions for SSFIV can spark similar sales numbers. Unfortunately, SCIV uses the Star Wars brand to score the "appealing characters" point. Not that the cast of SC is bad, FAR from it, it's that the guests have always taken the front seat and downplayed the core of the game story for so long, casual fans probably don't even know what is going on anymore.

Sorry to get off on a rant again, but me + soulcalibur + keyboard = oodles of text.

-DeathCom

[dentenshi]

Have you ever noticed alot of the soulcalibur moves use similar animations to tekken? lol

[kobe2085]

I believe, and i am sure a vast majority of other too, that we need some Final Fantasy characters in the new Soul Calibur. We do not want any hihatchi in a sumo thong and sandles, nor no slow darth vadar, we want Final Fantisy 7 like cloud and most importantly Sephiroth. Maybe even characters form the other Final Fantasy like squall etc, that would be extreme!!!!

[dracomageat]

No. Just no. If that were to happen I would probably disown my entire SC collection, not to mention never buying another SC game.

[dentenshi]

No! No more F*** Guest! This isn't Guestcalibur!